This is a pretty fun thing to do; redrawing an old work to see how my style has developed. Yeah, I used to have that phase when I drew cutesy anime girls in fantasy outfits. Surprisingly there are still a few people who say the earlier version looks better, which kind of baffles me. Really? Are you sure? What about the improved anatomy and posing, and the more consistent lighting?
Oh right... the old pic is more detailed.
I know I wrote in the previous post that backgrounds are better with more detail, so this might sound a bit contradictory... But overall I think people obsess with detail too much. There's one English guy called "Otaking" who has even made it his personal crusade to declare that detail is the one and only measure of visual brilliance. Naturally he loathes modern anime because the art styles have gotten more simple over time, particularly the shading. He argues that even Disney films look bad for the same reason.
Never mind that his 80's examples are mostly still frame "money shots".
Those styles were a nightmare to animate.
His edit of a 2008 anime screenshot into a typical oily-skinned 80's equivalent
I thought this guy was an elaborate troll at first. Of course this is all a matter of taste in the end, but I can't help but facepalm a little. The whole medium of animation is hardly meant for super detailed drawings to begin with; the more detail you have in a character, the clumsier it will move. At worst you would end up with little more than a slideshow!
The simplicity is a welcome change in my opinion. Most anime, especially in the 90's, uses shading just for the sake of using it, so the characters are always evenly lit from somewhere above:
(Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo, 2006)
I have to say I prefer this approach. You don't need to use a lot of detail to make a solid, functional, appealing image. It's not a matter of laziness either, as some might argue; in fact a good simple drawing is harder to pull off than a good detailed drawing, since there isn't a ton of extra crap to hide your flaws with.
Having more to look at isn't always the better option.
Just my two cents. And I just happen to love flat surfaces anyway. Flatness is great.
My blog was recently added to ani.mu, an online listing for Finnish anime blogs. They asked me to mention it, so here goes!
The simplicity is a welcome change in my opinion. Most anime, especially in the 90's, uses shading just for the sake of using it, so the characters are always evenly lit from somewhere above:
Like Miyazaki's films, where light sources tend to be kinda vague
(Mononoke Hime, 1997)
(Mononoke Hime, 1997)
And then there are a few titles where shading is used in a very sparing, strategic fashion - to create a feel of space and atmosphere:
(Toki wo Kakeru Shoujo, 2006)
I have to say I prefer this approach. You don't need to use a lot of detail to make a solid, functional, appealing image. It's not a matter of laziness either, as some might argue; in fact a good simple drawing is harder to pull off than a good detailed drawing, since there isn't a ton of extra crap to hide your flaws with.
Having more to look at isn't always the better option.
Just my two cents. And I just happen to love flat surfaces anyway. Flatness is great.
Toulouse-Lautrec, bitches.
My blog was recently added to ani.mu, an online listing for Finnish anime blogs. They asked me to mention it, so here goes!
Samaa mieltä, vaikka ajatuksella tehdyt yksityiskohdat ovatkin joskus herkullisia. Tämä taitaa liittyä: http://www.sarjakuvanteko.fi/wiki/index.php?title=Virtuositeetti
ReplyDeleteDetails and fluid motion usually cancel each other out. If the creators of a series want to focus on fluid motion in their anime, they should, understandably, cut the level of detail down. Check out the battle starting at 3:12 in this video:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV5qmpaoS_s
Is it super detailed and shaded? Not really. But the fluidity of motions is just awsome, only haters could hate that scene. Mixing fluid motion with awsome details is possible, but it costs too much if you think about it. Most of the audience won't appreciate the time and money put in the scenes. For example, Gundam 0083 had awsome space fights with fluid motion, usually with two or even three different levels of shading, but I bet most viewers could do with just one depth of shade, or none. Most mecha battles are about explosions and fluid motions of the robots, after all.
Thankfully almost all animation studios have stopped the insane detailing, and are starting to balance the animation more towards fluidity of motion. These less detailed scenes can STILL look awsome though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yz1cr5bJ7w
Sorry for my small rant there. But my point is, that I like more your newer version of the fairy and it has nothing to do with details, strangely enough...
I wanted to take a moment to say I'm really glad I follow your blog! It's hard to find an art blog that also comes with reading substance but yours is an exception. I'm learning a lot about anime from a technical standpoint and I love that you take the time to put up pictures and videos to show everyone.
ReplyDeleteAnd frankly, I prefer the minimalist approach that today's anime has taken. I mean the focus is animation, the moving pictures. I'm far more impressed when a studio can realistically reproduce someone putting on a coat by animating details like adjusting the collar and then a quick shrug right after than if they took the time to draw out the seams of the jacket. If details in animation are worth anything, it's far better invested in action details than image details.
Pseudomangassa ihmiset tuppaavat laittamaan ihan kaikkeen tuhdisti varjoja ja yksityiskohtia, mikä vain raskauttaa lukukokemusta (ja siitä on vain turhaa työtä). Niiden käytön rytmitys tuntuu puuttuvan monilta.
ReplyDeleteRunsas cell-shadingin käyttö joko rikastuttaa tai raskauttaa animen visuaalista maailmaa. Se riippuu vähän animen vakavuudesta ja aiheesta. Kaikki 80-90 luvun detailisti varjostetut scifi-animet ovat herkullista katseltavaa, kun taas esim shoujo sarjoissa sellainen häiritsisi enemmän.
Mutta joo, on tää on vähän maku asia, mutta "Less is more". Joko vähennetään niitä varjostuksia ja yksityiskohtia animesta, tai sitten sitä animaatiota. En vaadi välttämättä visuaalisesti Mikki Hiiren sulavaa letkukäsi animaatioita, eli teknisesti parempi ei ole aina se kiinnostavempi. Vähällä animaatiolla pääsee, jos on hyvä visuaalinenohjaus ; ). Slideshown ja tiukan animaation hyvä rytmitys iskee muhun kun nyrkkisilmään.
Maybe it's because I am studying animation but I also prefer the simple look. It is a real talent to draw something with just few pencil lines and make it look like something recognizable. And if there is some weird shapes in it to make it even more interesting, that's even better.
ReplyDeleteDetails can be cool as long as there is a real purpose to put it there. It's frustrating to see people adding tons of details on the picture (or a character) just because it looks "awesome" and makes it "original". No. It's not awesome or original. It just makes things confusing to look at if you haven't given any reason why there is so much crap (pardon me) all over the place.
You said that sometimes details are just an excuse to hide the flaws. I agree with that completely! You will never improve if you keep hiding mistakes. I can't even think about drawing something horribly and then putting some flashy details to cover it. I personally believe that the structure of the drawing has to be done well before you can move to make details. There will be problems later if you don't do thing properly in the beginning.
Very often bad character designs look bad simply because they have too muh detail.
ReplyDeleteThough naturally, it's also much harder to make lots of details work well together than to just use a simpler design.
Vähän riippuen tilanteesta, toisinaan vähemmän on enemmän...
ReplyDeletealkimohap: Eihän yksityiskohdissa mitään vikaa sinänsä...
ReplyDeleteSaunders: Haha, well thanks for the rant. Pretty cool video clips too!
Julia: Thank you! I don't claim to be an expert on these subjects but I'm glad you learned something new still. Yeah, the magic is really in the motions, so props to those who make it their first priority.
metalmiku: Sepä onkin just se liika varjostelu mikä tekee usein pseudomangasta niin tunkkaisen näköistä :D
giraffe-tea: Great points, yeah. Especially in animation one shouldn't make the designs too busy or they become hard to follow, not to mention it's a bitch to animate...
Tsubasa: Indeed. Especially when they try to adapt some shoujo manga where the hairdos are a pile of lines all over the place. Looks bad every time.
Aura: Riippuen tilanteesta juu :>
Noista omista teoksistanne on 08-versio on paljon pehmeämpi ja lämpimämpi jotenkin. Jos jommasta kummasta tehtäisiin esim. sarjakuvan henkilö, niin tuohon myöhempään teokseen varmasti voi samastua helpommin.
ReplyDeleteJoskus nämä 80-luvun yksityiskohtaiset tyylit toimivat, mutta niitä tosin ei animoitu niin ahkerasti, kuten kerroitkin jo. Yksityiskohdat + aktiivinen animaatio kuormittaa liikaa päätä ja sitä ei ole enää mukava katsoa kun ei pysy mukana.
I have to say that as older the artist gets the simpler the his works becomes. The saying goes to any visual art in general.
ReplyDeleteReducing details in animated image is just matter of time. Back in that time, Japanese animation didn't have enough budget and animating skill level. My take on 80's anime is that many animators are young people in their 20's and 30's who have tons of energy to draw tiny details for each drawing. Of course, being in TV production system, those young people didn't have enough experience to fully grasp life-like motion yet. Not just animation, even their comic books are peppered with insane amount of details too. Since comic and animation are in symbiotic relationship, it's no wonder why it's full of details.
Of course, their budget level is very low, 50 animators for typical US TV production versus 15-25 animator for Japanese TV production, Japanese had to rely on illustrative approach to compensate lack of life-like fluid motion in their animation. Without "money shot" that Ms. Laurinen is referring to, the production studio wouldn't have enough budget to make that visuals that established its position which 90's fans fell love to.
Beautiful thing about their lack of experience and low budget is the situation gave them opportunity to experiment their crafts further. Just visit Anipage Daily (Pelleas.net) for history of their experiments. I believe that detailed 80's Anime is a part of their experimentation. Right now, Japanese animators are saying that they don't have much freedom to deviate from set rules like going off model.
Fluid motion in animation doesn't always equal to good animation. I've seen good deal of fluid and full animation from US and Europe. Sometimes they frustrates me because their timing feels awkward despite trying to be smooth and life-like. It's better to see "imperfect" motion and timing in animation developed through trial & error.
Reading other people's comment on favor motion over details, I do agree what they're saying. However, they shouldn't downplay the visual experimentation that animators went through. Thanks to the experiments, we're seeing their trademark shadow shapes and highlights in their animation.
Instead of becoming stagnant with decadently fluid animation in many western feature animations we see today, Anime is in golden age where they are constantly tweaking and adjusting their expressions of motion. Going through that detailed drawing era is just a phase which those animation professionals went through just like us going through puberty.
Tää oli kyllä pieni järkytys! Surffailin ihan muina miehinä tuon ani.mu:n kautta kunnes osuin tähän blogiin ja silmiin sattui toi sun ennen&jälkeen -piirrustus. Ja nimenomaan toi 2002-versio! Näytti nimittäin jotenkin niin tutulta että aloin tutkia asiaa... ja olet siis se Maaria, joka joskus piirsi SotD-sarjakuvaa! Muistan lukeneeni sitä joskus... silloin... kauan sitten. Niin että nyt oon kyllä ihan nostalgian pauloissa. Jännää.
ReplyDeleteSamuel: Totta tuo. Kuvakaappaukset saattaa olla nättejä, mutta itse animaatio tökkii sitten pahemman kerran.
ReplyDeletehyun: Intriguing theories, thank you! I wouldn't really believe the 80's detail thing has that much to do with the animators' age though. Japan is a country where oldtimers get to lead most projects after all, and their stylistic choices are what matters. I think the detailed 80's style was simply considered cool back then, just like the 90's was all about huge eyes and bright colors. I could be wrong however.
defying gravity: Jeps, olen valitettavasti sama henkilö!
Hi, I have to chime in here. I just found your page here and I am glad I did. I do a little drawing but am in no way to be considered a pro. I prefer your first drawing of the fairy at the top and I will tell you, it has nothing to do with the level of detail. I believe that the first drawing looks like it was a character created from an artists mind. Committed to paper because she wanted to be created. She looks like a mythical creature. The newer more corrected version, while also an extremely wonderful piece, looks like a drawing of a person, living in the real world, with wings a tail and elongated ears. A mere reproduction of a previous piece.
ReplyDeleteI believe a more fair assessment of this type of task would be to create a new fairy. Then compare the two, but make the new creation just as vivid as the first.
Sorry. I just don't want you to feel like I am a mindless viewer who is simply mesmerized at high levels of detail. I think I will be following you now.
I hate to do this, but I also have a page, I would be honored if you would check it out. No need to comment on it, I would just like to share.
http://thegamegrid.blogspot.com/
I wrote a similar post some years ago, but there's been a problem since then which is that, as you probably know, Johnson took down the original Deviantart page with those comparison images.
ReplyDeleteThanks to your post, I can finally show people examples of his flawed argument instead of just directing them to a 404 page.
If you're curious, you can read the post here:
http://ogiuemaniax.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/five-tone-shading-or-a-perspective-which-lacks-perspective/